UPDATE: see post #12 -Model 1905 32-20 wcf mixmaster?..

[cmansguns]

I'm considering making an offer on what I think may be a parts gun, even though someone seems to have performed some parts switch-outs somewhere along the line. Current owner has no provenance, nor any backstory and is selling as a legit operable firearm.

I have checked only basic mechanical's, and finish looks real nice blued in that cylinder, barrel, and frame match finish wise with no evidence of hard buffing or dished seams, smooth out pins, which would indicate refinishing.

However with that said (and I cannot remove the grips to see for sure, the following for me are red flags, and the reason I am only considering a buy at parts gun pricing.

The frame and butt have a 4 digit only serial number. There is a lanyard loop and swivel right where the "C" MAY HAVE been if ever. The barrel flat has a 6 digit serial number 383XXX, and the cylinder face has also a six digit serial number 45XXXX. The barrel is roll stamped 32-20 CTG (note: no WCF or Winchester).

The frame is marked on right side Made in USA, the grips are checkered diamond square butt, and with gold washed medallions.

The gun is being sold as a legit firearm and the serial number will be the 4 digit number with no alpha letter. 4 digits do not jive with a Model 1905 4th Change like mine. The 32-20 barrel font appears factory but the font is larger than my 1921, all matching 32-20 WCF.

The big kicker for me is the Made in USA one-liner on right side frame. This should not appear on a true 4 digit 32-20 frame until at least 4th change per SCSW 4th, and would carry at least a 6 digit butt (and yoke) serial number.

Again....none of the serial numbers appear modified or altered in any way, fonts appear factory and age appropriate, however without any provenance I just don't know what to make of it, and will not purchase it, even for parts if the true caliber and age cannot be identified to my satisfaction.

Sorry...........no photos allowed, and I am dealing with an intermediator, not the actual owner.

A couple questions:

Was there ever a cartridge named just 32-20, even black powder that was NOT centerfire?

When did Made in USA, start to appear on (what I assume is a K Frame)?

Would the S&W factory have assembled such a revolver at customer request of a service order after WWII using an older frame, but modern cylinder and barrel of different serial numbers?

Have you ever seen or heard of a 32-20 having a lanyard ring and swivel? Possible miltary/LEO service?

As always thank you in advance for comments, answers and opinions. The "asking" price is $800 but I'm thinking a heck of a lot less for parts only, or pass altogether based on a 4 digit serial number which just does not jive with Made in USA on the frame.

Pics below are my 32-20 WCF, all numbers matching gun that I may take along for comparison IF I even go back.

 

[Alk8944]

.32-20, .32 WCF and .32 Winchester are all the same thing. Which appears on a S&W depends on when it was made. The .32-20 CTG marking is correct for a gun made after 1922 as evidenced by the Made in USA marking on the frame.

When you can remove the stocks, you may find the full serial number stamped on the butt of the frame on the left side, parallel to the bottom. The lanyard loop would have been added post production on this gun. If done by the factory they re-stamped the SN on the side of the frame as above. Adding the loop would have obliterated part of the SN, hence the re-stamping.

The original SN would be found on the butt, rim of cylinder, back of extractor facing cylinder, back of yoke arm facing the cylinder, and bottom barrel flat. These should all match if there have not been parts swapped. If the cylinder number does not match with the order of remaining digits on the butt the cylinder has been changed.

It does sound like a "Frankengun" and $800 is far too much by at least $400! A "Winchester Model" has to be in excellent condition in all respects to be worth anywhere near $800.

It is a K Frame, the only size S&W made guns in .32-20. The only calibers the cylinder could be is .32-20 or .38 Special.

The term "parts gun" is only used to designate a firearm in such condition as to only bee good to salvage parts.

The last year of production of the .32-20 guns was 1929 or 1930, although they were catalogued until 1940. The last shipping date has been reported to be from back stock in 1965.

The service department would have installed alanyard loop on any gun that a request was made to do so clear into the 1970s or so. They would/could not build a new .32-20 once the reserve stock of repair parts was expended, probably mid-late 2940s.

 

[Green Frog]

.32-20, .32 WCF and .32 Winchester are all the same thing. Which appears on a S&W depends on when it was made. The .32-20 CTG marking is correct for a gun made after 1922 as evidenced by the Made in USA marking on the frame.

When you can remove the stocks, you may find the full serial number stamped on the butt of the frame on the left side, parallel to the bottom. The lanyard loop would have been added post production on this gun. If done by the factory they re-stamped the SN on the side of the frame as above. Adding the loop would have obliterated part of the SN, hence the re-stamping.

The original SN would be found on the butt, rim of cylinder, back of extractor facing cylinder, back of yoke arm facing the cylinder, and bottom barrel flat. These should all match if there have not been parts swapped. If the cylinder number does not match with the order of remaining digits on the butt the cylinder has been changed.

It does sound like a "Frankengun" and $800 is far too much by at least $400! A "Winchester Model" has to be in excellent condition in all respects to be worth anywhere near $800.

It is a K Frame, the only size S&W made guns in .32-20. The only calibers the cylinder could be is .32-20 or .38 Special.

The term "parts gun" is only used to designate a firearm in such condition as to only bee good to salvage parts.

The last year of production of the .32-20 guns was 1929 or 1930, although they were catalogued until 1940. The last shipping date has been reported to be from back stock in 1965.

The service department would have installed alanyard loop on any gun that a request was made to do so clear into the 1970s or so. They would/could not build a new .32-20 once the reserve stock of repair parts was expended, probably mid-late 2940s.

Of course there were also a few 22 LR cylinders for K frames and even a very few in 32 S&W L. If this is indeed a “mixmaster” of mismatched parts, and somebody ordered a factory rebuild or even a “custom” build from somebody with access to enough parts, all kind of things become possible. At one time, during a factory reblue, the “Made in USA” stamp may have been added during refinishing.
Froggie

 

[4K2022]

None of the numbers in the OP make sense! to me anyway.

Example; the barrel flat, 32-20 serial numbers stopped @ 14?xxx

The “parts” in this revolver are probably only useful (in this revolver).

 

[Muley Gil]

As far as I know, NO S&W .32-20 revolver ever had a barrel with a 383xxx serial number and a cylinder with a 45xxxx serial number.

I guess that a .38 barrel could have been relined to .32 and marked as a .32-20 and the same procedure could have been done to a .38 cylinder.

 

[Alk8944]

"The frame and butt have a 4 digit only serial number. There is a lanyard loop and swivel right where the "C" MAY HAVE been if ever. The barrel flat has a 6 digit serial number 383XXX, and the cylinder face has also a six digit serial number 45XXXX."

4K2022 is absolutely correct! The highest serial number for a .32-20 K Frame is 144,684. There cannot be a factory marked cylinder, barrel or frame that has a higher SN. The numbers he lists would have to be on parts for a .38 M&P. i suspect the seller has mis-identified the revolver!

The first .22 caliber K-Frame didn't exist until 1931, the .K-32 did not exist until 1936, and the .32 M&P was a post WWII introduction, so the comments above about those calibers make no sense! I stand by my original comment that the only calibers a K Frame of the period of the .32-20 guns could be is .32-20 and .38 Spl. And so far as suggesting a re-lining of a .38 to .32 won't work as the thickness of the liner would be literally paper thin!!! This would be ridiculous and I defy anyone who believes this to show me any S&W revolver made prior to WWII that has been lined to any smaller than original caliber!

 

[glowe]

Look for evidence of barrel and cylinder sleeves? The barrel and cylinder could be bored out to accept 32 caliber sleeves. Those numbers are definitely not in the 32-20 serial number range. Not sure what to say about the caliber stamping on the barrel, so look to see if it is factory or gunsmith applied?? If I am reading correctly, a 4 digit serial number on the frame cannot have a MADE IN USA, and it cannot have a square butt???? My guess would be that 2 numbers were drilled out when installing the lanyard ring.

 

[4K2022]

I’m obsessed now, damn it.
The made in USA one line stamp, 1922.
A 32-20 stamped barrel “should” have the improved square cut rear sight and the wider front. Stocks are of the period +\-.

The way the OP described
“the frame (AND) butt have the same serial number” makes me question what number is actually where.

I would like to know the serial number on the face of the yoke, ?
I believe ANY k frame yoke built within the next 100 years will slide right in to any 1905.

Then the cylinder
IF the frame and barrel actually share the same serial numbers (when the facts surface) and the barrel is cut for a forcing cone (1923) and a Stepped “mushroom” extractor knob (discontinued 1928) everything would seem, so far okay. Lots of if’s.

My idea would be to verify the bore in the barrel is .32 and work backwards.
I’m thinking of someone necking down a.357 case and loading them with .32 wad cutters .
Then again if the sights are iron? Why?
Lastly the extractor star number might help,, only the 32-20 star will extract a 32-20 case.

 

[mikepriwer]

This is a very confusing situation. A 4-digit K-frame serial number has to be a round butt frame, in either 32-20 or 38 caliber, otherwise known as a model of 1899 or 1902. Yet the gun is being described as a model of 1905, which is the factory designation for a square-butt frame. It can't be both ways, so something is wrong with either the serial number, or the name that is being used.

It's worth noting that a 32-20 bullet, and a 32 long bullet, are exactly the same size. This means that a barrel marked 32-20 can be used for shooting 32 long cartridges, provided that the cylinder is properly chambered. I suggest that you bring a 38 special, a 32 long, and a 32-20 cartridges with you, on your next visit to examine the gun, to determine what it is actually chambered for.

I use "K32" to denote any K-frame revolver chambered in 32 long. The factory did make these as early as 1910, and possibly a couple years earlier. The earlier ones were serial-numbered in the 32-20 ( or 32 Winchester) serial number series, and the later ones were numbered in the 38 serial number series. I know this for a fact, because I have examples of both, with factory letters documenting them.

Best of luck, Mike Priwer

 

[4K2022]

suspect the seller has mis-identified the revolver!

I stand by my original comment that the only calibers a K Frame of the period of the .32-20 guns could be is .32-20 and .38 Spl. And so far as suggesting a re-lining of a .38 to .32 won't work as the thickness of the liner would be literally paper thin!!! This would be ridiculous and I defy anyone who believes this to show me any S&W revolver made prior to WWII that has been lined to any smaller than original caliber!

I understood the OP as if he (The Buyer) handled the actual pistol.
A peek down the cylinder should have been enough to ascertain the caliber, especially the tapered 32-20 (rifle cartridge). IMO

The only calibers? .32 Winchester and .38 Special (.357 bore) yes I agree in the time period that was it! UNLESS you wanted more power. The 1908 N frame 44 Special which became the 1917 took center stage of production in 1917 and when WW1 was over,,, My opinion is the 32-20s “of old” purged through the pipeline until 1923 ish. Look for the cutout in the top of the frame above the cylinder gap ,,, the black powder (intended use) guns have this cutout. After 1923ish we have IMO a World War tested, improved steel frame, through the development of the 1908 N frame.

However, your (OP) 32-20 is a great example of the changes and the serial number sequence. I’m speaking to the pictures you did post. A S&W 32-20 with a serial number 100,000 and above only leaves 44,000 more! That serial number would be 4th change for sure. But that barrel stamping is telling me the barrel has the skinny front sight and u notch rear? Also in the 4th change was the removal of one of the extractor star alignment pins, leaving only one.

.32 *cal and.38 Special *cal (357 bore) only k frame option,, *for barrels

Edit; to Mike’s caliber selection, add a.38 S&W (the short) and Fat one

 

[Muley Gil]

Although a different type of firearm, Bobby Hoyt in PA relines rifle musket barrels. If you have ever examined a Springfield or Enfield from the War of Northern Aggression, those barrels are very thin. Don't see a .38 S&W couldn't be fitted with a .312" liner. .32-20 pressures aren't real high either.

 

[mikepriwer]

To clarify what calibers are possible for early K-frame revolvers, here is the factory letter for 43134. This is one of two that I own, the other being 43133.

Both of these guns are serial-numbered in the 32-20 serial number series, but were chambered in 32 long. The letter points out that there are several guns in this serial number range chambered in 32 long - there appears to be a dozen or more in this group. These two guns are 4" target revolvers, made and shipped one day apart to two different shooters in St Louis.

There are at least two other groups of 32 long revolvers in the 32-20 serial number series, that I am aware of. One is in the early 60XXX serial number range, and the other is in the middle 50XXX serial number range.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[cmansguns]

UPDATE 32-20 Mixmaster - I am the OP

With my thread I did obviously stir up some "soup" (shall we say).

I did go back this morning, with my SCSW4th, some ammo (empty case 32-20 WCF), a strong LED light, bore light and..just in case a proper 3/32" hollow ground screwdriver to remove the grips if they would allow me.

Bottom Line: Very possibly righteous...but a HARD PASS for me.

Some answers, yesterday I only had my regular glasses to any magnifiers, so I depended on another person to read the small font serial numbers. Today I read them all for myself:

Barrel flat: 121151, Cylinder face: 121151, Butt 1151.
yoke only 4 digits, nothing ground or polished just 6545 which may be an assembly number, but bluing and surrounding area just doesn't show any signs of rework and font is the same as bbl flat.

Final s/n conclusion: whoever added the lanyard ring and swivel drilled right through the original "12" of the serial number.

Other observations: right bbl roll stamp "32-20 CTG" (no dingbats); front sight typical half round, rear sight: square notch
front and backstrap smooth, chambers are absolutely correct for 32-20 wcf; made in USA on right side frame. Grips are square butt checkered target with gold washed medallions and diamond around screw holes. Gun is tight, no end shake, no side to side, no push-off. Gun also comes with a black leather holster with over the hammer strap, marked Clark Bros, Los Angeles CA and the number 5 embossed on backside.

Seems to me as very possibly righteous, however the owner is long deceased and the estate executor will not allow the grip removal, even after my showing that this model, and caliber was made 1915-1940 per SCSW and the first serial number was 65701 and the last 144684.

Additionally (possibly legal...I don't know as I'm not a lawyer) they will not sell it under any other number than the 1151 on the butt! They claim it is listed this way, and will only be sold that way. (yep...that is a period.

Final (for me at least) they are firm at the $800.

I will not jeopardize my 03 FFL by purchasing a gun at any price
that has serial number that we know does not exist. IF they had allowed the grips to come off, and IF there was a S&W factory service mark as to the full serial number before drilling and adding the lanyard swivel........THEN I probably would have made an offer, but not more than $500, which would probably been refused and maybe not even countered.

OK...........there you have it direct from the horses end (you choose North or South). Still no cell phone pics allowed, and I'm no longer interested.

I apologize for stirring up so much confusion.

 

[Muley Gil]

Charlie, that does simplify things a mite!

 

[JP@AK]

The only one with a 121000 serial number in my database shipped in December, 1923. That date squares with the .32-20 CTG on the barrel and with the Made in U.S.A. on the frame.

It does not fit with stocks having the recessed gold medallions, so you can be pretty sure those are not original.

I'm glad this mystery has been cleared up.

Incidentally, I would have passed on it also . . .

 

[glowe]

Another one, my 32-20 Target #110915 shipped on August, 1924, so much for serial number order.

 

[4K2022]

Occam’s Razor

 

[Muley Gil]

"The barrel flat has a 6 digit serial number 383XXX, and the cylinder face has also a six digit serial number 45XXXX."

So, someone else read these numbers for you? I don't feel so bad about my eye sight anymore!

If an order came in for a revolver with a lanyard loop and there were no unfinished frames available, the factory would drill through the serial number and then re-stamp the SN on the grip frame, under the grips. Usually, the loop was 1/10" forward of center.