SIG P320 Discharges?

[SGT ROCK 11B]

For the old timers who may be familiar or aware that the 1911 can double, triple or empty a magazine or discharge when loading the chamber because of a worn or improperly fitted “sear”.

I’m betting that is something similar to the SIG problem.

Another reason to be a revolver person.

 

[Rob613]

Sig is now being managed by the same person who almost destroyed Kimber. All the issues that Kimber had under Cohen's leadership are issues at Sig now. Combine that with poor QC of an imperfect design, the 320, and you have the issues being seen.

The issue of tolerance stacking has been brought up by various people. Not just from Ian.

With the way Cohen is once again treating the customers, I would avoid all things Sig. At least until he's gone, and new management proves they actually care about putting out a good product. I'm not anti-Sig, I'm anti-Cohen who failed upwards and treats people like crap.

Cohen is also a convicted arms smuggler, so there’s that.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Which other firearm manufacturers are you familiar within the Granite State that this bar to plaintiff action benefits?

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.

As well, your comments seem to ignore the U.S. Army’s M17/18 testing, which of course was able to document and readily reproduce uncommanded firing in the P320 platform. I would believe that dozens of taxpayer-funded testing iterations would be acceptable, correct?

To wit, see page 183 from the Directorate Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of Secretary of Defense - https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf

It's my pleasure to educate you.

Sturm, Ruger & Co. primarily manufactures its firearms in three locations within the United States: Newport, New Hampshire; Prescott, Arizona; and Mayodan, North Carolina. The company is headquartered in Southport, Connecticut. Additionally, Ruger owns Pine Tree Castings, a specialty metals machining and casting company, which is also located in Newport, New Hampshire.

Here's a breakdown of the key locations:

• Newport, New Hampshire: This location includes the main firearms manufacturing plant and Pine Tree Castings.

If you are of the firm opinion that the omissions of one or more "features" such as manual thumb safeties, and/or magazine safeties, should be as of themselves, grounds for lawsuits against gun dealers and manufacturers, then we must continue to disagree.

 

[WheelMan321]

Sorry but I would not have a 320 if you gave it to me.
Ok all who swear buy them do you appendix carry them, that’s faith.
Not happening, I have a new thing for HK Lem hammer pistols, and yes appendix all day long with peace of mind.
Yes to many horror storys with the 320, why risk it.
Even the military had them change the trigger for the contract, if that ain’t enough evidence I don’t know what to tell you.
The sold the same trigger to the civilian’s, at least that’s what I read somewhere.

 

[RebCop]

I just saw a video where an officer in California had her 320 go off in her holster. She was a school resource officer and put her back pack into her car and the weapon discharged. She was not touching the weapon at the time. That should never happen and until it's cleared up I'll not own one!

 

[history-fan]

Which other firearm manufacturers are you familiar within the Granite State that this bar to plaintiff action benefits?

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.



As well, your comments seem to ignore the U.S. Army’s M17/18 testing, which of course was able to document and readily reproduce uncommanded firing in the P320 platform. I would believe that dozens of taxpayer-funded testing iterations in a laboratory setting would be acceptable, correct?

To wit, see page 183 from the Directorate Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of Secretary of Defense - https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf

Edit: Images of text from the Army report, which found uncommanded discharges and noted a history of trigger group manufacturing issues.

You are referring to the drop testing that identified a problem early on. My understanding is that was acknowledged and rectified by Sig years ago.

 

[SASFixer]

Sig is now being managed by the same person who almost destroyed Kimber. All the issues that Kimber had under Cohen's leadership are issues at Sig now. Combine that with poor QC of an imperfect design, the 320, and you have the issues being seen.

The issue of tolerance stacking has been brought up by various people. Not just from Ian.

With the way Cohen is once again treating the customers, I would avoid all things Sig. At least until he's gone, and new management proves they actually care about putting out a good product. I'm not anti-Sig, I'm anti-Cohen who failed upwards and treats people like crap.

If there is a problem with the 320 it is a management/engineering problem. Getting them to first admit there is a problem is a huge problem. How many of us remember the SIG Mosquito reliability problems that two recoil springs was supposed to remedy and an admonishment to use CCI Mini Mag ammo. I confronted SIG people at the SHOT Show and was "stone walled", seems Germanic Engineers don't make bad decisions. Ultimately I found that the chamber was too tight and the extractor didn't put enough force on the case/rim interface to extract the fired case from the chamber. I reworked most Mosquitoes in Western NC with no complaints.

 

[Fred Ward]

Not enough is known because of Sig.

Up until the P320 fiasco, I had nothing against them. I admired them for a quality product.

Years ago I owned a P220 and 226. Both great guns. Outstanding actually. But I disliked DA/SA triggers and switched to Glock.

Then the drop issue came about with the P320. Instead of issuing a recall like any other manufacturer. They suggested a voluntary “upgrade”. Think about that for a minute.

An upgrade is offered to a product which is fine functionally but will perform better with an upgrade.

To use the word upgrade is not an admission that something is wrong. That was their intention all along.

And they have done the same with the ND issue. They continually deny that a problem exists even though there is ample evidence.

They claim that “agenda driven parties” have launched attacks against them. Agenda driven parties? So the military, law enforcement, and the average citizen are all conspiring against them?

And the worst part is that they blame ALL of the “unintended discharges” on the customer. Really!?

So every single ND was the fault of a careless police officer? A military member? Or an average citizen? I don’t think so. Not all of them.

There is definitely a problem. And we may never know what that problem is. Something is wrong. Something is fishy. And I’m beginning to wonder if Sig actually knows what the problem is.

And worst yet, how many more people have to get shot before something serious is done?

This issue has been beaten to death. It boils down to faith-you either believe the gun is defective or you do not. I have perhaps a dozen in various configurations and frame materials, several of which are loaded around the house. None has ever discharged by itself.

 

[DaleMc1950]

Since the drop issue upgrade has been done, has ANYONE been able to demonstrate, unequivocally and verifiably prove, that the P320 can discharge a round without the trigger being pulled?

No, it has never been proven and not once at any of the trials. Mine just sits there minding its own business.

 

[Always Faithful Holsters]

I’ve built 2 P320’s and own 3. I carry them often. I’ve never had an issue. Don’t expect one either.

 

[lightstar_actual]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I wouldn't buy a P320 with all the hoopla going on.

 

[biku324]

This issue has been beaten to death. It boils down to faith-you either believe the gun is defective or you do not. I have perhaps a dozen in various configurations and frame materials, several of which are loaded around the house. None has ever discharged by itself.

And yet Chicago PD, Washington state's POST Academy, SEPTA, Milwaukee PD and others have dumped the SIG 320 because of the issue, some as late as April.

 

[patjkshor]

I disagree, its Glock's fault they built a totally unsafe design. A 1911 with hammer down does not produce Glock Leg and even in the cocked and locked mode it will not go off when holstered. Again it is Glock's fault, not the users, as an accidental snag of the trigger on your shirt tail or on a fold in the holster will set it off faster than a cat can jump off of a hot tin roof. But the Glock Fan Boy's refuse to admit to reality and the truth about a totally unsafe design. They will tell you with a straight face, "It has not happened to me and never will because I will be lucky".

Striker fired pistol are mostly cocked guns without safeties. Need I say more!!

 

[Lt.Donn]

Sig is now being managed by the same person who almost destroyed Kimber. All the issues that Kimber had under Cohen's leadership are issues at Sig now. Combine that with poor QC of an imperfect design, the 320, and you have the issues being seen.

The issue of tolerance stacking has been brought up by various people. Not just from Ian.

With the way Cohen is once again treating the customers, I would avoid all things Sig. At least until he's gone, and new management proves they actually care about putting out a good product. I'm not anti-Sig, I'm anti-Cohen who failed upwards and treats people like crap.

You are correct... regardless of the final outcome ( and we may Never actually know) this once sterling brand has been irrevocably tarnished...I don't even give them a 2nd thought anymore...not that I'm anyone important to them

 

[mrerick]

There is an extensive discussion about this on the SigTalk forum at:

https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/p320-mega-thread-post-all-p320-design-issue-discussion-here.459088/

It includes months of comments, videos and summary analysis.

One of the most respected SIG armorers (with extensive background on the design) has done a deep analysis of the design and factory production of them. His video is discussed on this thread.

As a certified instructor I warn students that this firearm's design has a very short trigger take-up distance to the sear wall, and that any holster must completely and closely cover the trigger guard. The use of accessories like lights mounted on the front rail is not recommended because of gaps that must be left in holster designs.

 

[burneyr]

HardToHandle said:

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.

It's my pleasure to educate you.

Sturm, Ruger & Co. primarily manufactures its firearms in three locations within the United States: Newport, New Hampshire; Prescott, Arizona; and Mayodan, North Carolina. The company is headquartered in Southport, Connecticut. Additionally, Ruger owns Pine Tree Castings, a specialty metals machining and casting company, which is also located in Newport, New Hampshire.

Ruger isn't headquartered in New Hampshire - your own quote contradicts that.

Regardless, as noted the bill protects manufacturers no matter where they are headquartered or domiciled.

And yet Chicago PD, Washington state's POST Academy, SEPTA, Milwaukee PD and others have dumped the SIG 320 because of the issue, some as late as April.

No dog in this 320 fight but I was affected by the bolt bump firing recall on the Sig Cross. Can't blame that one on holsters or being dropped. I can't duplicate the issue since the trip back to Sig, but it isn't the first hunting rifle I reach for any longer.

So many quality handguns available in the market free of controversy. I don't see the upside of owning the 320 having tried one out. It's nothing special.

 

[patjkshor]

Not enough is known because of Sig.

Up until the P320 fiasco, I had nothing against them. I admired them for a quality product.

Years ago I owned a P220 and 226. Both great guns. Outstanding actually. But I disliked DA/SA triggers and switched to Glock.

Then the drop issue came about with the P320. Instead of issuing a recall like any other manufacturer. They suggested a voluntary “upgrade”. Think about that for a minute.

An upgrade is offered to a product which is fine functionally but will perform better with an upgrade.

To use the word upgrade is not an admission that something is wrong. That was their intention all along.

And they have done the same with the ND issue. They continually deny that a problem exists even though there is ample evidence.

They claim that “agenda driven parties” have launched attacks against them. Agenda driven parties? So the military, law enforcement, and the average citizen are all conspiring against them?

And the worst part is that they blame ALL of the “unintended discharges” on the customer. Really!?

So every single ND was the fault of a careless police officer? A military member? Or an average citizen? I don’t think so. Not all of them.

There is definitely a problem. And we may never know what that problem is. Something is wrong. Something is fishy. And I’m beginning to wonder if Sig actually knows what the problem is.

And worst yet, how many more people have to get shot before something serious is done?

The SIG 320 was the army’s idea to replace worn out Berettas. Looking to solve a problem that didn’t exist. The Beretta M9A4 is a better, safer gun than the 320. Anyway very few people in service carry hand guns. Army talked about being able to change the pistols chassis?? Who cares. Striker fired pistols are inherently unsafe because in most cases they are a cocked weapon without a safely. Self defense side arms are for up close and dirty combat. The single/ double action worked fine. Not meant for bulls eye shooting. Long shot cock the darn thing.
55 years carrying a sidearm professionally.

 

[biku324]

The SIG 320 was the army’s idea to replace worn out Berettas. Looking to solve a problem that didn’t exist. The Beretta M9A4 is a better, safer gun than the 320. Anyway very few people in service carry hand guns. Army talked about being able to change the pistols chassis?? Who cares. Striker fired pistols are inherently unsafe because in most cases they are a cocked weapon without a safely. Self defense side arms are for up close and dirty combat. The single/ double action worked fine. Not meant for bulls eye shooting. Long shot cock the darn thing.
55 years carrying a sidearm professionally.

I disliked the M9 because of the caliber, but any I carried always said 'bang' when I asked them to and not at all otherwise.

 

[Neumann]

The trigger pull on a P320 is short and crisp. Most LEOs use some form of locking holster, which may play a part in the few confirmed ND's. I feel more comfortable having a thumb safety (M18), rather than a double trigger. My holster has a retention feature which grips the front of the trigger guard, and covers the entire trigger. Without a thumb safety, any foreign material inside the trigger guard can cause a discharge, as can a mis-adjusted retention feature.

Other sources blame a defective trigger bar, which is MIM in the 320, compared to stamped metal in other P series. I find this conclusion questionable. The sear itself is solid steel, and a defective trigger bar is more likely to result in FTF.

 

[Airdale26]

Since the drop issue upgrade has been done, has ANYONE been able to demonstrate, unequivocally and verifiably prove, that the P320 can discharge a round without the trigger being pulled?

So far none have been reported that I am aware. A very common item beside the firearm, in each of the described incidents is the holster. I would surmise based upon notes, reports and discussion groups Blackhawk and Sarfariland are the common denominator.