No more revolvers . . .

[Mister X]

There is a lot of rationalization going on in this thread.

Many seem to have the perspective that revolver=mature marksman and Glock=inept neophyte spraying bullets.

I currently carry a revolver more often than anything else, but I'm not a cop. It is for very good reasons that law enforcement moved away from the wheelgun. The notion that it is still an acceptable choice as a service sidearm just isn't based in logic. That's even true in the case of highly skilled individuals. I saw mention of experience in one post. I don't know many LEO's who have been in a high number of gunfights, but if we want to look to the opinions of the select few who have, I'm pretty sure there is a consensus that an autoloader is by far the preferred choice.

 

[Chubbo]

Dancing

This discussion has become a dancing lesson. dancing around the fact that the people elected to protect the public have failed badly. To send cops, and soldiers, to protect us, that are untrained in their profession, most, that couldn't hit an elephant in the behind, if they were standing on it's back, is asinine. I think that getting the opinions of some of our truly efficient Cops, and soldiers of our past would prove relevant. I for one, don't believe that it's possible to kiss, and love an assailant into submission, or to scare him into it, with the noise of a dozen rounds fired into the air. I guess that I haven't paid enough attention to our loving, passive citizens. I guess that I'd better shut up, as anything I'v said, won't have any meaning, to the folks that don't believe that the axe could ever fall, or that you should ever do anything to prevent it from falling, as it might offend the person wielding the axe.
Chubbo

 

[Mister X]

I think that getting the opinions of some of our truly efficient Cops, and soldiers of our past would prove relevant.

Who might that be?

 

[elm_creek_smith]

I think a revolver in the hands of most of these officers would change only the round count going down range, not the hit ratio. That’s just my 2 cents of course!


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This is why I’m still carrying a revolver (4 inch S&W Model 686-6) on duty. If they offer me this gun when I retire next year, I’ll take it, Hillary hole and all.



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[sw dan]

i'll take the revolver for duty, carried it for 25yrs, no problems. new guys need more training, and only go to the range once a year. spray and pray, do not work in this world. like the revolver, no rap and tap, just pull the trigger, and it goes bang. whats not to like.

 

[P71]

So this actually is an end of an era. To me, any S&W gun collection should have a NYPD revolver, regardless of condition. I'm guessing the ones that are sold off to the public will go for a premium.

I had heard a few years ago that there were less than 500 (out of about 30,000 officers) with revolvers still in use as service weapons, so that current "below 200" figure mentioned earlier is probably about right.

Since the revolvers are personally owned, some will make their way to the public, often through gun shops in the NY metro area, Florida, or Carolinas, where many NYPD retirees live and sell or trade in their guns, or through estate sales. In the past, they didn't seem to fetch a premium price as used guns, since you can expect scratches, finish wear, and dinged up grips.

 

[Wise_A]

This discussion has become a dancing lesson. dancing around the fact that the people elected to protect the public have failed badly. To send cops, and soldiers, to protect us, that are untrained in their profession, most, that couldn't hit an elephant in the behind, if they were standing on it's back, is asinine.

Hmm...forgetting the soldiers for a bit--using a radio is more useful than using a rifle, because of those planes and helicopters and **** I mentioned--the goal of policing is to not shoot people. Even people that might be deserving of it, even people that might literally be asking the police to shoot them (suicide by cop).

Hence, shooting isn't really a primary skill. Being observant and in command of the situation, on the other hand, is.

If a person, be they citizen or LEO, is walking around expecting either their muscles or their marksmanship to get them out of trouble, then trouble is exactly what they'll find.

Is police training miserable? Yeah, probably, in most places. But it's not like training standards or even the process itself is standardized nationwide. It'd be nice if every officer had some paid range time every month, but I hear you guys also like low taxes and such.

 

[Jim NNN]

Good insight, Wise A. I also think that, whatever their shortcomings, the NYPD and every other dept. in the US deserves some deference because they put their lives on the line for our safety. I live 1500 miles away from NYC, and I probably don't share political views with a lot of people in that part of the world, but have admiration for the NYPD.

 

[dwever]

It’s ridiculous to assert that just because a weapon has a capacity of 17+1 that there is a corresponding deemphasis on marksmanship. My duty Glock was as accurate as all but one of my revolvers, and I was thankful to have the reduced cost of the 9mm ammo when the issued practice ammo ran out each year after 3 months.

For law enforcement, good riddance to the six shot. That became pretty obvious after my first active shooter school and STOPS training. Other applications it’s an open argument.

Warm up target, 9 holes from Glock Model 22 .40.

 

[Chubbo]

Cops, and Soldiers

Who might that be?

Mister X:
I doubt that you will recognize any of these famous Cops, and Soldiers, as they didn't earn their fame on TV shows, and the Internet, They earned them in real life. Here are just a few. Jelly Brice, Frank Hammer, Bill Jorden, J. F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lee Marvin, Audy Murphy, the list goes on and on. Look 'em up, it's interesting.
Chubbo

 

[Arik]

Mister X:
I doubt that you will recognize any of these famous Cops, and Soldiers, as they didn't earn their fame on TV shows, and the Internet, They earned them in real life. Here are just a few. Jelly Brice, Frank Hammer, Bill Jorden, J. F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lee Marvin, Audy Murphy, the list goes on and on. Look 'em up, it's interesting.
Chubbo

What would some of these people have to do with revolvers? Audy Murphy?

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[Arik]

I don't think I would want to take a revolver on my journey through a LE career these days....not too many bad guys seem to limit themselves to 6 or 7 rounds w/ 10lbs + trigger pulls.

This ^

I know a lot of you guys are about nostalgia but a gun on duty is a tool first and foremost. A revolver doesn't automatically make one a good shot, not even close. We can argue inherent accuracy helps under stress but in the end it all comes down to P R A C T I C E !!!!!!

Twice I've given people my duty size revolver to shoot at the range and neither was capable of hitting a target at 7 yards. If this was a police officer shooting at a bad guy everyone around the bad guy would be dead. The gun used was a model 13 with a 4 inch barrel and 38spl range ammo. These 2 people are causal gun owners. They own guns and shoot once a year for sure, maybe a little more. Neither one owns 500 rounds of ammo (10 boxes). They buy one or two boxes when they show up at the range. When these people shot their own semi autos of various calibers and manufacturers they were no better. When they shot my 1911 they had similar results. Load enough mags and one or two rounds will hit somewhere on the target!!

No practice!

This is all it comes down to. PRACTICE! You can be great with any gun if you put in the time.

Slow deliberate fire .... revolvers rule! When I do defensive shooting I'm faster and better with a semi auto. I'm not bad with a revolver, just better with a semi auto.
I can keep practicing with a revolver but I'll never be as fast so I choose what's more efficient not what jewelery to wear.



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[Arik]

One thing a semiauto can do better than a revolver is spray a large number of rounds at nothing in particular. Not saying that all semiauto shooters do that, but the level of marksmanship I've seen over the years has deteriorated.

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That's not a gun problem, that a user problem.

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[mpc]

The ones I've seen still carried have all been Model 10s

 

[Mister X]

Mister X:
I doubt that you will recognize any of these famous Cops, and Soldiers, as they didn't earn their fame on TV shows, and the Internet, They earned them in real life. Here are just a few. Jelly Brice, Frank Hammer, Bill Jorden, J. F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lee Marvin, Audy Murphy, the list goes on and on. Look 'em up, it's interesting.
Chubbo

I'm pretty sure all the individuals you listed are deceased, so getting their opinion on the topic at hand may prove rather difficult and I'm not sure how relevant it would be anyway.

Are there no living individuals with real-world gunfighting experience whose opinion you feel is worthy of consideration? I think there are many and they all carry semi-automatic pistols by choice. Bob Stasch immediately come to mind. Even Lance Thomas has a lot of insight to offer as far as I'm concerned. SOF's around the globe overwhelming choose those plastic pistols you deride. Are they all lacking in skill?

An individuals perspective decades in the past is not necessarily the same as what they might think today. Even Jim Cirillo switched to primarily carrying autoloaders(Glocks) in his later years. I imagine there are very few individuals who have been in multiple firefights in today's world who have chosen to stick with carrying a revolver. Times change and wise people change with them.

 

[Chubbo]

Appology

I'm pretty sure all the individuals you listed are deceased, so getting their opinion on the topic at hand may prove rather difficult and I'm not sure how relevant it would be anyway.

Are there no living individuals with real-world gunfighting experience whose opinion you feel is worthy of consideration? I think there are many and they all carry semi-automatic pistols by choice. Bob Stasch immediately come to mind. Even Lance Thomas has a lot of insight to offer as far as I'm concerned. SOF's around the globe overwhelming choose those plastic pistols you deride. Are they all lacking in skill?

An individuals perspective decades in the past is not necessarily the same as what they might think today. Even Jim Cirillo switched to primarily carrying autoloaders(Glocks) in his later years. I imagine there are very few individuals who have been in multiple firefights in today's world who have chosen to stick with carrying a revolver. Times change and wise people change with them.

Mister X, Arik, and others:
First of all, I would like to apologize for my rude answer, to your short curt answer to my post. I considered that marksmanship should be considered in this discussion. Also history, as a lot can be learned from the study of it. I didn't think the age of the subject, or if the subject was deceased, was that important. I even addressed my reply to Arik's reply about Audy Murphy, to the wrong person. Well, consider this old "fogy", to be completely out debated, put in his place, and sorry. I need to explain my behavior, and then I promise to observe only, and not to let it happen again. At 86 yrs of age, my memory has failed me badly, along with my spelling abilities, I have to spell check every word that I write, and make a lot of mistakes, even in judgment. Sorry.
Chubbo

 

[elm_creek_smith]

That's not a gun problem, that a user problem.

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That's exactly right. We called it suppressive fire in the Army. "I have 15/16 rounds! I can keep their heads down!" It requires a mindset change.

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[J. W.]

This thread inspired me to break out a couple of revolvers and head to the department range today. Most of my range time these days is spent training with my issued Glock 22 or 23. It was a nice change of pace getting back to basics and away from the tactical tupperware.

My dirty 25-13...I fired 100 round of 255g LSWC over top of 13g of HS-6.

7 yards: (I’d like to lie and say it was 50ft as the target indicates...)

50 yards, unsupported, single action. Never mind the low flier and the miss.

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[Wise_A]

I also think that, whatever their shortcomings, the NYPD and every other dept. in the US deserves some deference because they put their lives on the line for our safety.

Considering that there are 37,000 uniformed NYPD officers--plus NYSP and Port Authority--they get a horrible rap for the relatively few shootings that take place. And yeah, it sounds awful that they literally budget for payouts to injured bystanders, but I'd bet it's hardly unique among the larger departments, and understandable given that they're operating in perhaps the most densely-populated city in the country.

And hell--look at that guy that dropped the bike path terrorist. Yeah, sure, he fired eight shots and "only" got one hit. But he also managed to not hit anybody he wasn't shooting at, against a guy he thought was armed, and who might have had body armor or a suicide vest.

That guy is one tough hombre.

So yeah, sad that these guys are saddled with pistols that are unnecessarily difficult to shoot--but that's a one-time decision that'll be pure hell to undo. What I consider worse is that the NYPD intentionally decided to limit the capacity of their new Gen-IV Glock 17s (17-round capacity) to match that of the older 19s (15-round capacity). It would've been nice if they offered some kind of a rebate program or special price through Glock to guys who wanted to upgrade to the 17, instead of just handicapping the 17.

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Chubbo -- No worries, mate. Point is, revolvers don't really emphasize shooting skill, they just demand it. Even reloading one takes a lot more skill and focus than an automatic.

So if we can issue a gun that holds more ammunition and reloads more easily, that's a pretty good deal.

And yeah, I'd go so far as to say a guy'd have to be a little crazy to still be carrying a revolver on the job in NYC. Nobody knows what the day might hold--the bike path cop was responding to a suicide call at the nearby school at the time.

 

[p8riot]

Wow, having to give up your revolver hurts.
Having to trade in a venerable S&W revolver for a Glock makes it downright insulting.
How are you going to be able to qualify while wearing the paper bag of shame over your head?

At least there is a Sig as an option, albeit a DAO.