Trainwreck guns for self-taught smithing

[Shotguncoach]

Here's a preview of the coming trainwrecks:

Trainwreck #2:

Trainwreck #3:

Total cost for both, including shipping, was $256.11.

"Why yes Mr. IRS Man, that is an educational expense. What school? Um......the Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing. Yeah, that's the ticket."

(Just kidding, just kidding - I don't ever want to have that conversation)

Edit to add: Yes, I do know that trainwreck #2 is going to be "different" inside. Based on the serial number it's approaching 120 years old. Definitely a "conserve" exercise on that one.

 

[gmarshall99]

I've decided that I want to learn how to 'smith on Smiths. I'm a decent rifle mechanic and I can make a 1911 run, but I've never been inside a revolver before. Instead of practicing on my nice guns, I decided to pick up some trainwrecks to practice on. So far I've "won" three auctions for a total of less than $350. The plan is to start out small with just cleaning them up and restoring proper function (if possible) and then progressing all the way through fitting barrels, cylinders, refinishing, and hopefully making them into something worth keeping. If I completely hose one or more of them, I'll still have the tools and I'll know what not to do next time.

This isn't a full time thing for me so expect this thread to take a while.

Trainwreck #1 arrived yesterday. It's a 1955 or '56-ish 5 screw pre-model 10 in nickel. From the auction pictures I would guess that it was stored with the same side down for several decades. There is also some nasty looking stuff creeping out from under the grips.

Initial inspection was difficult because it is so gunked up inside that the cylinder has to be pushed open and barely rotates. The action will sort-of cycle but it's rough. Timing is off on every chamber by a significant amount.

Getting the grips off turned out to be the first challenge. Two hours of soaking in Kroil and some effort with a dental pick finally revealed the screw slot. I made an initial check to see if I was lucky (yeah right) but the screw wouldn't budge. Time for more Kroil.

After 24 hours of soaking both ends of the grip screw in Kroil, I started gently rocking the screw back and forth between tightening and loosening. I was one twist away from deciding to clamp the whole thing into the drill press and using the press to help remove the screw when it moved. Constant downward pressure and slow movements got it out.

Surprise, surprise:

The wife and I have a date tonight so this is all for now. The next step will be to scrape off the big hunks and dunk it in a tank of Ed's Red for a few days. Not sure what that will do to what's left of the apparently factory nickel finish (there's an N hiding under all that mung) but that's part of what we're here to find out. I'm also just a bit worried about the sideplate screw that I can't quite see, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Stay tuned....

The NRA sponsors summer gunsmithing schools at the four gunsmithing colleges every year. For a modest fee spend a week with an expert smith revolver class. You will learn lots more lots faster.

 

[2152hq]

I'd love to be able to give a progress report, but the only progress today was to start cleaning the bench. ......
Right now the area looks like a survivalist episode of "Hoarders".

Don't let a cluttered bench or benches keep you from working.
Some of us just seem to work that way..
Others keep their work bench looking like a dining room table at the White House.

When the pile of tools gets to the point where I actually loose stuff or it slides off onto the floor I will 'clean' it up some.
Or usually after finishing a project that lasts a long time and has brought out a lot of tools, it's put a way time.

Here's one of my 3 benches in normal use mode. It's actually my Engraving bench but I do a lot of gunsmithing off of it as well.
Works for me.







This last one shows my matched set of gunsmith screw drivers
all neatly placed in their numbered cases

 

[Shotguncoach]

I love your bench! I’ve actually hit two of your markers (losing things and stuff falling to the floor) with the additional issue of trip hazards on the floor from boxes and misc “stuff”. I can deal with the bench but having to step around things while I work bothers me.

 

[Vtgw938]

Metal Rescue will remove every bit of rust and with a littler work leave a shiny metal surface. I use it on stainless and nickel guns but it will remove bluing for sure. I found it safe to use on a nickel pre-model 27 but if there is rust under the nickel it will remove it and the nickel. I had severe rust and it did no damage. It is not an acid, and works slowly.

Remember it will remove bluing and also likely damage or remove case hardening on triggers and such as well as flash chrome. Do your research and go slowly.

 

[Shotguncoach]

Trainwreck #1 is still in the dip and will come out for it's first inspection on Sunday.

Trainwreck #2 is at my FFL and will be picked up tomorrow.

Trainwreck #3 is still in transit.

.....and here is Trainwreck #4. It's amazing what you find when you start looking.

This poor old thing needs help. I don't think there is any finish at all on most of the gun - it appears to be mostly in the white.

Pretty sure these are K frame grips:

And they don't play well with the mainspring:

Not too bad underneath:

Missing a sideplate screw:

Barrel serial number does not match the frame:

Neither does the one on the cylinder:

Some quality hand fitting here:

The cylinder strikes and rubs on the barrel stub on closing, but that's ok because the 87 inches of endshake allows it to slip past for a custom, self-clearancing fit.

A steady hand is important:

Not sure that the crane was born at the same time as the frame:

Alignment looks.....almost close:

The hand is absolutely pristine. At least the carry up is equally slow on all 6 chambers.

Just a bit of peening here. More of the self-clearancing feature:

Here's the good news:

A few drag marks, some mystery red stuff, and what might be the remnants of the old finish:

A little bit more of the old finish:

What doesn't show in the pictures is the single action pull that varies between excessively heavy OR push off/failure to lock back, and a double action pull that is very similar to dragging a brick through wet cement. The strain screw was backed out 3 full turns when I got it. That made the double action pull more like dragging a brick through a pan of overbaked lasagna.

This one should be fun. It might be easier just to remove the lanyard ring, replace everything else, and then reinstall the lanyard ring.

I think I'll start by getting the crane aligned and fixing the endshake, then see what that does for the cylinder gap and carry up. Then I'll see what's up with the single action push-off and the atrocious double action pull while I get the carry up dialed in. I'll have to get a .45 range rod for this one...I only have .38 and .44 in the box now. The drag marks on the hammer will have to be addressed. The barrel stub will get squared and the forcing cone recut eventually. I'm sure I have a set of grips somewhere that will fit better and not interfere with the mainspring. The finish will come last...unless I discover something that kills the whole project and then it becomes a bluing practice gun.

This one was free, but I had to drive to get it. I may have paid too much.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Everything I've seen so far looks easily fixable. Most of that is just normal wear on a hard used gun. Enjoyed the humorous descriptions. It sounds like you have a good handle on what's going on. You can bend the mainspring straighter and file a bit off of the strain screw to clear the grip screw.

 

[Shotguncoach]

Trainwreck #1 came out of the dip today. Here's what we got:

In this case it appears that Ed's Red did not damage the nickel.

I used a full can of brake cleaner on it and then a few quick shots of aerosol Rem-Oil.

It's still nasty in there but everything is moving now.

The cylinder cleaned up reasonably well:

But there's bad news inside the barrel:

Four of the five screws broke loose, but that one that was under the grip panel is still stuck tight. I gave it a few sharp raps with a hammer, then made an attempt using the drill press as a tool guide and only accomplished breaking the bit.

It looks like there may be a bit of progress in getting through the rust around the top of the screw.

The other good news is that after the soak and lubrication the action works and the timing is perfect.

There's still quite a bit of rust inside. This is what bled out while I was messing with the action:

That sideplate screw needs to come out so that I can get inside but I'm not going to rush it. I had a shop teacher that encountered an exhaust manifold bolt that was rusted tight. His solution was to spot weld a wrench to the bolt, put some oil on the bolt, and then place the hole assembly by the classroom door. The students just couldn't help themselves and constantly messed with the wrench.....by the end of the semester the bolt was out.

My approach will be similar. First, the whole gun will go back into the Ed's Red for two weeks while I'm at the National Finals Rodeo. Then if the screw still doesn't come out, it will soak constantly in Kroil and every day it will get a couple of hammer taps and some gentle back-and-forth using the drill press as a tool guide. It'll come out eventually.

In the meantime, I'm going to do what any good redneck would do: I'm going to take it to the range today and shoot it! Who knows...maybe some recoil will help break the screw loose.

 

[2152hq]

Set the frame up in a vise and place the flat end tip of a rod that is the dia of that stuck screw onto the screw head.

Then take a propane torch and heat the rod itself up red hot but a couple inches up from the frame.
The heat will travel down the rod and heat the screw head and screw to help loosen the rust.
Keeps you from placing a torch flame directly onto the screw head which always flames over onto the frame around it.

The heat will travel upwards too of course, so hold the rod with a pliers!

The screw and the frame joint will smoke and sizzle from the oil and penetrant that has been soaked in there.

The heat will help further loosen it up. It will expand the screw as it gets hot and help break and bond in there from rust.
Once in a while when you feel it may let go for you, remove the rod and torch and quickly have a go at loosening the screw with well fitting screw driver.

The screw driver tip turn heat temper blue in the process so don't use your finest boutique tools.
But screw drivers are tempered to about 700F anyway (spring temper range) so a dark blue shouldn't hurt it.

You can also use the heat thing along with the screwdriver bit in the drillpress or mill chuck for extra torque.
They usually come out that way. The gentle back and forth motion with the bit in the chuck does a lot to help loosen a stubborn screw.

Last resort is to drill it out. Drill dead center with a drill slightly smaller than the minor thread dia. Then you can turn it out or collapse & pick it out in pieces if needed w/o damage to the frame threads.

 

[Shotguncoach]

Thank you Sir! I'll give that a try after the two week soak.

 

[Shotguncoach]

I'm back from the range with the same number of finger, toes, and miscellaneous orifices that I started with.

Trainwreck #1 has been successfully fired. 15 shots, all went bang, firing pin indentation looks wonderful, all empty cases ejected without any sticking.

It also smells really bad, vomits orange glop all over my hands, and oh yeah......it keyholes. But other than that everything was great.

We wanted to practice gunsmithing, right? Right?

Back into the dip it goes. That sideplate screw still has to come out so I can get inside and stop the decay before the barrel swap can happen.

 

[Shotguncoach]

Oh yeah, and I "won" trainwreck #5 today. That one will remain a secret until it's time to work on it...

 

[AlHunt]

I use something like this on stubborn/rusted sewing machine screws. They work pretty well.

https://www.autozone.com/ratchets-s...ilt-impact-screwdriver-set-5-piece/529289_0_0

 

[Shotguncoach]

I may have gone just a bit overboard on acquiring projects. Here is the list of ones that are either in my possession or that I'm waiting to receive. Project names have been assigned to each to for a personal touch.

#1 "Mud Hen"
5-screw K frame. Substantial frame pitting and barrel pitting. Practice frame for machining and refinishing.

#2 "The Geezer"
1902 Military & Police. Needs clean, repair (trigger return), conserve.

#3 "Short and Sweet"
10-8 3" heavy barrel round butt. Needs barrel, cylinder, refinish.

#4 "Warhorse"
1917 DA 45. Needs everything except the lanyard ring.

#5 "Bullshooter"
14-2 PPC conversion. Missing internals.

#6 "Half in the Bag"
J-frame in a bag. Needs assembly and ??

#7 "A Little Harry"
48-2 .22 magnum 6". Needs trigger job.

#8 "Route 66"
66-2 4". Bulged chamber, needs cylinder.

#9 "Organ Donor"
1950 Target .44 special 6". Needs barrel, cylinder, refinish.

#10 "Eleanor"
1950 Target .44 special 4". Bulged chamber, needs cylinder.

It may take me a minute to get through all of these....

 

[raljr1]

I barely look at ugly guns anymore unless they are really cheap or rare. I looked a a model 10 with target grips. Priced at $289. Previously refinished with gold plated trigger and hammer. Grips were worth more than the gun. Can't be saved in my opinion. Pass. Nickel guns are harder to save than blue. you can do a passable cold blue, but as much as I like nickel guns, ugly ones can not easily be saved. Good luck and have fun.

 

[BC38]

I barely look at ugly guns anymore unless they are really cheap or rare. I looked a a model 10 with target grips. Priced at $289. Previously refinished with gold plated trigger and hammer. Grips were worth more than the gun. Can't be saved in my opinion. Pass. Nickel guns are harder to save than blue. you can do a passable cold blue, but as much as I like nickel guns, ugly ones can not easily be saved. Good luck and have fun.

Ugly ones? Like this one? I think the final product looks pretty good. All I did was give it a good scrub, then polish it up with a felt wheel in my Dremel & some Mother's mag polish, then a coat of Renwax to keep it shiny...

 

[Shotguncoach]

That flibberty-gibbet screw is OUT.

Now I have to figure out what to do with this lovely thing......

 

[busy2mch1]

That flibberty-gibbet screw is OUT.

Now I have to figure out what to do with this lovely thing......

Best of luck! We're following your slow and steady progress!

 

[Llance]

Shotguncoach, I'm not much into nickel plated guns but were it me I would remove all the nickel and then sandblast to remove all the rust in the pits. Following that I would fill in the pits under the grips with some JBWeld with a colouring tint the same colour as what you are planning to do with the rest of the frame. That should take care of that part of the gun. Were it my after a good sandblast I'd cold blue it with several wipes of the cold blue salutation to ensure it's good and dark. That will hide most of the remining pitting.