Landmark 2A case might be heard by Supreme Court

richardw

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Kolbe v. Hogan

What might be a landmark case regarding the banning of assault rifles could be headed for a Supreme Court hearing. The case, Kolbe v. Hogan, is scheduled for the SCOTUS conference of 11/21/17. That is when Justices will decide whether or not to hear the case.

The case is an appeal of the Fourth Circuit’s en band decision upholding the Maryland assault weapons ban. That case was originally heard in district court, which upheld the ban. Upon appeal a 3 judge panel found the ban to be a 2A violation. The State requested an en bans hearing, which resulted in reversing the appeal panel decision.

Almost immediately after the ban was upheld a petition was filed seeking SCOTUS to hear the case. Now the conference to make that decision has been scheduled. A number of legal experts think SCOTUS will elect to hear the case. The reasoning behind that is because there are now three Circuit Courts that have upheld such bans, but each one has used a different rational for coming to its decision. That means there is no clear test for determining whether a ban is proper or not. One duty of SCOTUS is to resolve such confusion and and conflicts by setting a national precedent.

Kolbe v. Hogan offers the pro 2A advocates the best opportunity to bring closure to the assault ban issue because the Fourth Circuit took a daring leap in upholding the MD ban. It interpreted SCOTUS’ Heller v. District of Columbia decision, which found that weapons that are in common use were protected under 2A, but that weapons best suited for Military use like the M16 could be regulated. That language of the decision was a bit murky. Clearly M16 rifles are not in common use because they are limited to use by the military unless one gets a special ATF approval to possess one. But AR15 style weapons are in common use and they look like and in some ways function similar to M16 rifles. So the unresolved questions that arises from Heller is what does “like the M16” mean. Does it mean look like or function like? And if it means function like how much similarity is required.

If it means look like, then banning assault rifles might not be a violation of 2A rights. If it means function like, then rifles that only look like military M 16 (including variations like the M 4) should not be subject to being banned especially if they are in common use. So called assault rifles are in common use with over 1,600,000 having been sold in the US.

The parameters of the Kolbe Case are such that SCOTUS might be forced to make a definitive ruling on several points. The MD ban was upheld not only on the basis of “look like” but also by a comparison of the the functionality of military assault rifles like the M16 and rifles like the civilian AR15. The en banc Decision reasoned that so called assault rifles functioned in a manner to make them similar to but not identical to military assault rifles. It found that the differences between automatic fire capability and semi automatic fire capability were not great enough to affect lethality so therefore they could be banned.

So now SCOTUS could be forced to do something it rarely does, that is, to rule with such specifics as to make interpretation of its decision absolutely clear. That would be a landmark 2A decision regardless of which way the Court would rule.

Of course it is possible that SCOTUS will not decide to hear the case and thus allow the ever increasing confusion and disagreement over banning assault like weapons to go unresolved. We shall see.
 
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While it is on the calendar for that date, there is no assurance that the Justices will discuss it or make a decision then. It's not unusual for a case scheduled for conference to be pushed back several times before it's discussed or a decision is made. Peruta was pushed back several times before cert. was denied.
 
So, are you saying you would be OK with them banning automatic weapons as long as as they leave "EBRs" that are semi-automatic alone? And if a decision goes the other way, does that now open up every long gun with a scope on it to be banned as a military "sniper rifle"? Will this then be extended to include all models and makes of handguns that the military uses - both ours and others?
 
While it is on the calendar for that date, there is no assurance that the Justices will discuss it or make a decision then. It's not unusual for a case scheduled for conference to be pushed back several times before it's discussed or a decision is made. Peruta was pushed back several times before cert. was denied.

Certainly correct. The case was scheduled for the 11/9 concerence and then postponed. It could happen again and yet again. Sooner or they will have to decide whether to take the case or not. I hope it is sooner.
 
So, are you saying you would be OK with them banning automatic weapons as long as as they leave "EBRs" that are semi-automatic alone? And if a decision goes the other way, does that now open up every long gun with a scope on it to be banned as a military "sniper rifle"? Will this then be extended to include all models and makes of handguns that the military uses - both ours and others?

I said nothing about my preferences in my post. All I was trying to do was make people aware of the case, it’s importance, and the issues to be resolved. As the questions you posed of me about what the practical longer term rssulfs might mean in terms of gun control, I have no idea what might occur. The results could be great or horrible.

As for my opinion on banning automatic rifles, it makes no difference. They are already banned except for those who get ATF permission to own one.
 
They are all lawyers and need to be watched closely when they make decisions on anything. Thanks for posting.
 
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Of course it is possible that SCOTUS will not decide to hear the case

I sincerely doubt Scotus will take the case. I believe MD allows certain semi-autos with removable magazines but bans others based on having two evil features. As such MD residents can still have semi-auto weapons with considerable firepower and their rights are not really being infringed.

see

Firearm Search

Allowing some Ruger Semi-Auto 5.56's but not others

Seriously, is New Jersey preventing me from keeping and bearing arms because it prohibits me from putting a flash hider or baynet lug on my .243 semi-auto?

7oQOrxL.jpg


h0HJ9ja.jpg



IMHO, the ban based on cosmetic features might be arbitrary and capricious, but it is not a 2A violation
 
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I sincerely doubt Scotus will take the case. I believe MD allows certain semi-autos with removable magazines but bans others based on having two evil features. As such MD residents can still have semi-auto weapons with considerable firepower and their rights are not really being infringed.

see

Firearm Search

Allowing some Ruger Semi-Auto 5.56's but not others

IMHO, the ban based on cosmetic features might be arbitrary and capricious, but it is not a 2A violation

Appeals at the circuit and Supreme Court level are not based upon facts. They are based upon interpretations of the law. So it makes no difference what MD does re semis. The only thing that matters is whether the appeals court interpreted the Heller v. DC decision properly. It is a case where facts no longer matter. All that matters is how the Heller v. DC decision is interpreted by SCOTUS in light of the 4th Circuit decision.
 
Seriously, is New Jersey preventing me from keeping and bearing arms because it prohibits me from putting a flash hider or baynet lug on my .243 semi-auto?

Yes . . .

IMHO, the ban based on cosmetic features might be arbitrary and capricious, but it is not a 2A violation

" . . . shall not be infringed."
 
What's an "EBR?" I try to live in an AFZ (acronym free zone) . . .

I hear you. We had so many acronyms in the Corps that I I sometimes wondered how we actually managed to communicate.

Setting that aside, an EBR is an enhanced battle rifle.
 
I hear you. We had so many acronyms in the Corps that I I sometimes wondered how we actually managed to communicate.

Setting that aside, an EBR is an enhanced battle rifle.

Well, then that's really not germane to the discussion, since an EBR needs a tax stamp. An EBR that doesn't is just an R . . .
 
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Yes . . .



" . . . shall not be infringed."

Right

But Heller allowed handguns because long arms were not suitable for everyone and some people needed a handgun to be armed.

Heller did not say 2A protected pink handguns or semi-autos with flash hiders

Resting your case on “shall not be infringed” is a losing argument at court.

To infringe a right the right must exist and have bounds. Government crosses the bounds and your rights are infringed

No right = no infringement
 
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No right = no infringement
Sorry, the math there doesn’t comput for me. Unless you are saying that one has to have a “right” declared in order to have said “right” infringed.
Then, at what point is the threshold for infringement of said “right”?
No argument, just interested in opinions.
 
I sincerely doubt Scotus will take the case. I believe MD allows certain semi-autos with removable magazines but bans others based on having two evil features. As such MD residents can still have semi-auto weapons with considerable firepower and their rights are not really being infringed.

see

Firearm Search

Allowing some Ruger Semi-Auto 5.56's but not others

Seriously, is New Jersey preventing me from keeping and bearing arms because it prohibits me from putting a flash hider or baynet lug on my .243 semi-auto?

7oQOrxL.jpg


h0HJ9ja.jpg



IMHO, the ban based on cosmetic features might be arbitrary and capricious, but it is not a 2A violation

You do know that there are import rifles that you can't have barrels for! After all it's just a cosmetic feature! Any import rifle that was originally meant to be a military rifle ..... that barrel is considered an "implement of war" and cannot be imported. Same exact rifle made for civilian sales is ok a brand new barrel is ok but all that costs a lot of money. To get a good quality correct barrel runs $300 - $600 depending on the firearm.

Is the world going to end if I don't have a bayo lug? No! Has anyone been bayonetted to death lately? Recently? In any crime in the continental US in the last 50 years? So why can't I have that accessory?

Do you need a 243? Do you need that scope? How far can you actually see in the woods of NJ? Seems like you want to be some assassin or a sniper. Sounds more dangerous than that bayo lug!

Does NJ prevent you from keeping and bearing arms if you're only allowed single shot, smooth bore, front loading rifles? Mags and center fire ammo are not a 2A violation. Even ammo...any ammo ban is not a 2A violation! Nothing in the Constitution about keeping and bearing ammo.

Are these bans "arbitrary and capricious"? Sure! But you can play that down to nothing. A firearm is the receiver. Plain and simple. Everything else is just an accessory
 
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We will agree to disagree on this point, and beyond the following, I have no more comment. I believe the Second Amendment protects pink handguns, 100 round magazines, bump fire stocks, and Hi Point firearms of any caliber, regardless of one's "need" for them or their popularity or usefulness. Once we start talking about "usefulness," and "need," we're infringing the right . . .

Right

But Heller allowed handguns because long arms were not suitable for everyone and some people needed a handgun to be armed.

Heller did not say 2A protected pink handguns or semi-autos with flash hiders

Resting your case on “shall not be infringed” is a losing argument at court.

To infringe a right the right must exist and have bounds. Government crosses the bounds and your rights are infringed

No right = no infringement
 
We will agree to disagree on this point, and beyond the following, I have no more comment. I believe the Second Amendment protects pink handguns, 100 round magazines, bump fire stocks, and Hi Point firearms of any caliber, regardless of one's "need" for them or their popularity or usefulness. Once we start talking about "usefulness," and "need," we're infringing the right . . .

Very well put
 
Heller did not say 2A protected pink handguns or semi-autos with flash hiders



"Prior court holdings show that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time."

Many of these weapons that are in common use possess these cosmetic characteristics, which do not increase the weapon's lethality. Not sure how SCOTUS will, if ever, address this issue.
 
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I hear you. We had so many acronyms in the Corps that I I sometimes wondered how we actually managed to communicate.

Setting that aside, an EBR is an enhanced battle rifle.

I always thought that EBR meant Evil Black Rifle. I guess that is the California interpretation.
 
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